AGLY Ep 07 - The Debrief
EP 07 - ATTACHMENT THEORY & STYLES, SOMATIC THERAPY, NPD & THE NERVOUS SYSTEM
This has to be up there as one of my favourite episodes, ever. I mean, I only have seven to choose from… but hey. I love all of them for different reasons, but it was great to be able to remove the ‘UN’ from my usual unprofessional opinion. The professional I refer to was the one and only, Elizabeth Anile - the shoe was finally on the other foot! I had my first ever experience recording a podcast with Elizabeth back in 2019, on her podcast > Lemonade. I remember being so nervous beforehand, but quickly realising it was actually such a safe and intimate setting - hence why I love this as a medium. To add to my those nerves (and the disgust at the sound of my own voice) was that Elizabeth is a journalist and TV producer - yikkkes. I have to say though, listening to her has taught me a lot about how to navigate a good interview - what to ask, how to ask and then how to really listen. In short, when I grow up, I’d like to be Elizabeth!
We spoke for nearly 78 hours and what felt like was a (free!) personal therapy session about all things: attachment theory, attachment styles and how they work/don’t work with our partner’s, the nervous system and somatic therapy, NPD vs narcissism or narcissistic traits, toxic positivity, labelling or self-diagnosing and everything in-between. While we covered some pretty heavy topics, we kept it upbeat and it’s an easy (but longish) listen. The beauty of a pause button, huh - WOO. As usual, I like to follow-up all episodes with a written debrief and include my final thoughts and any relevant resource info.
This episode is available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
ABOUT ELIZABETH:
Elizabeth is a registered (ACA), qualified (MCouns.) psychotherapist from Melbourne, who specialises in psychodynamic therapy. She prefers to blend talk therapy with body-based somatic work - helping you understanding what triggers the body to feel unsafe, which can then be the key to unlocking deep healing and change. Elizabeth firmly believes there is no one-size-fits-all regarding dysregulation - hence why she will work with you at a pace that is manageable. Her style is trauma-informed, relaxed, warm and conversational, incorporating aspects of cognitive behavioural therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy, somatic therapy, narrative therapy and mindfulness.
Her expertise: co-parenting, single parenting, conscious parenting, parenthood, attachment issues, relationships, burnout, anxiety & depression, grief, self-worth & love, stress, separation/divorce, personality disorders, generational & incarceration trauma and how trauma presents itself in the body.
CONTACT ELIZABETH: CLICK HERE
I honestly wish we weren’t friends, as she would make the best therapist! You can also follow Elizabeth on Instagram, i’ve included her handles in the show notes and on my Instagram page.
PSYCHOLOGY LABELS & TOXIC POSITIVITY:
Elizabeth and I discussed our shared view of how harmful toxic positivity can be, as well as the cultural and social pressure of needing to label/diagnose ourselves (and others). I mean we’ve all heard and probably said at some point things like: “you’ll get over him”, “be strong”, “it could always be worse”, “look on the bright side”, “everything happens for a reason”… bjjjurrrrkkkhhkkk, YUCK. That was me dry retching for anyone who needs assistance RE translation. I actually have the best sound bite of this noise, but i’m not tech-savvy enough to include it, UGH. But in all seriousness, it’s a slippery slope and one that isn’t always necessary in order to process how we are feeling or responding. Toxic positivity is the pressure to only display positive emotions, by suppressing any negative feelings, emotions or reactions. Not only does this not validate an experience or how we might be coping, but it can also open the door to unhealthy coping mechanisms, anxiety and overwhelm. Of course there’s nothing wrong with being positive, but there needs to be a healthy internal balance of realistic feedback and what we’re exposing ourselves to.
Something I didn’t share on the podcast, was that I have recently been diagnosed with PTSD (by my psychologist, not Dr Google). I could have already told you this in my finely tuned unprofessional opinion, but to be honest, it didn’t really change anything. Where I have found ‘labels’ useful is when i’m trying to understand or process the behaviour of others and in turn, my own party bag of feelings as a result. There is no hard and fast rule here, let me be clear on that. Some of us may need or want a firm label and it can help when you are on the receiving end of something like narcissistic abuse. Where I think we need to be careful is how the dismissive nature of toxic positivity can impact us and then not allowing it to penetrate your own sense of reality.
THE WINDOW OF TOLERANCE:
Learning about the Window of Tolerance with Elizabeth, was one of the highlights for me - of course I added my own little remix of “mine’s an air vent - it’s a little crack”, phhhoaarf. If you want to skip FWD to this part as a refresher, it’s at 19min into this episode. We mentioned we would include some more information about this, which I have added below and in the RESOURCES highlight on my AGLY Instagram page.
To summarise the Window of Tolerance simply > it’s a term used to understand and describe the range of reactions of our brain and body, particularly following adversity/trauma. It explains the zone of arousal in which we are able to function most effectively (or not). When you think about the analogy of a window (see infographic below), we can then visualise how open/closed ours is and what we are then able to tolerate. Elizabeth articulates this much more eloquently than I can, so any attempt I make at this point will fall short.
Here’s an (uber professional) article to help you CONNECT THE CONCEPT, better than I can > CLICK HERE.
ATTACHMENT THEORY & STYLES:
If you’ve been following along my blogcast of Ted Talks, you’d probably remember when I queried Attachment Theory - in relation to my own attachment style. I couldn’t understand why I had a history of being attracted to my fair share of $hitbags, when I had a good relationship with my mum (the primary caregiver). What my clever friend and the professional (Elizabeth) pointed out was, while of course there was an element of the ‘daddy issues’ and being drawn to certain personalities (also see trauma bond - FFS, lol), it’s more about HOW my attachment style formed by also witnessing how my mum responded. Anyway, I won’t deep dive into this too much, but she definitely cleared this up for me.
It’s hard to debrief after an episode that was explained so well, so maybe I should have titled this: EP 07 - Extended Show Notes. Whoops!
NPD & NARCISSISM:
While I’d love to further your understanding of this topic with more definitions, examples and anecdotal evidence… I’ve done this to death. I am drawing a line in the online sand and saying, you’ll just have to listen if you want to hear it from a professional.
What we did discuss was NPD defined Vs narcissistic traits, what narcissistic collapse is, the love bombing stage and then the devalue/discard stages of the narcissistic abuse cycle.
And now i’ll cut to a brief visual intermission break…
SOMATIC THERAPY:
I absolutely loved our discussion about somatic therapy and i’ve decided it’s something I am absolutely going to pursue. Elizabeth shared with us that it’s all about the mind-body connection and that past trauma can become in a way, trapped inside our bodies (in turn, impacting our nervous system). In my case, when certain individuals or situations trigger me I can often feel some of the following symptoms: my heart rate increases, I feel hot and sweaty, my breathing becomes more rapid, I feel physically sick and scared, panicked, angry and ready to launch, and I can struggle to regulate myself in those moments. Other symptoms can include: fatigue, nausea, diarrhoea, constipation, joint or muscle pain, headaches and palpitations. Fun and games, hey?! These types of somatic symptoms can occur when we are re-exposed to an abuser or a past trauma related situation, or just being stuck in survival mode. It also all ties back to our own Window Of Tolerance that we spoke about, and of course some of this can be PTSD related.
VIA to Psych Central: “Somatic therapy is rooted in somatic psychology, a body-oriented approach to psychology. Somatic therapies work by addressing the feedback loop that continually runs between the mind and the body.
Somatic therapy is different from typical psychotherapy (talk therapy). In regular psychotherapy, the practitioner engages only the mind. In somatic therapy, the body is the foundational point for healing. Practitioners of somatic therapy believe that a person’s negative emotions — such as those experienced during a traumatic event — can stay locked inside the body. If not released in a timely manner, these negative emotions can turn into psychological disorders or physical problems, such as neck or back pain (common in people diagnosed with PTSD).
Somatic therapists use mind-body techniques to release the pent-up tension that’s weighing on your emotional and physical well-being. These techniques could involve breathing exercises, meditation, dance, and other forms of body movement”.
For more information on somatic therapy, how it works and techniques, i’ve included a couple of articles below:
I also have to insert a quick reference to a very funny quote that Elizabeth relayed, regarding basically all of what we discussed and that was… “DO YOU WANT TO BE HAPPY OR DO YOU WANT TO BE RIGHT?”… You’ll need to listen to see how this played out, we had a great giggle!
This is a great read about somatic therapy (or as they refer to it as Somatic Experiencing) via RMB Psychology - CLICK HERE
Another great article via Intergrated Psych - CLICK HERE
MY TAKEAWAY:
Hmm, that i’m not the professional! Nehhh, I already knew that. What was so wonderful about this episode was that it was multi-layered, with regards to what Elizabeth spoke about. She shared in her wealth of knowledge about these topics in a professional capacity, but also opened up about her own struggles relative to our discussion. While there are so many wonderful professionals out there sharing really valuable content in this space, you rarely see or hear it with the addition of personal stories. Maybe because it is in violation of some sort of Hippocratic Oath (LOL) or an ethical breach in a therapy setting, but whatevs! When we can share our own stories and provide real examples of our how we may respond to things/our own behaviour, I think it can help drive home the advice and apply it to our own experience in a more meaningful way.
I loved that we were able to (ironically) label TOXIC POSITIVITY, because this sort of content absolutely friggin’ triggers me - and yes, I just used a buzzword. In my defence, my word count in that regard today has been pretty impressive. There are a few friends/accounts that I follow that are extremely positive (but in an ICK kinda’ way) - by that I mean, content about mindset and achieving goals. I applaud them in the sense that their motivation is probably pure and they genuinely believe what they share, but I struggle to see how it would land with the masses. It’s not always realistic from a financial perspective, it can illicit shame when you just aren’t feeling it and it can mess with our self-efficacy. Having said this, we need souls like this in the universe, i’m not hating on anyone - this sort of content just doesn’t float my boat. We also have tools to tune this out if it doesn’t sit well with us - MUTE or UNFOLLOW. Thanks, Meta.
I think my main takeaway from this episode was different in a sense that it was more about how we discussed what we did. I loved that Elizabeth dissected and defined topics in a way that was easy to understand and of course that it was laced with humour. I also just LOVE being around people who have a big brain, a big heart, who want to be a better person and who are self-deprecating. You are a force to be reckoned with, Ms Anile. Thank you for your honesty, your laughter and the absolute banger quote: “am I the lemon?!”, I literally LOL’d listening back to this. Thank you for being a part of this episode and I have no doubt this will help so many people.
SJ x